Tudor Nobility

Posted By on September 15, 2020

In this latest edition of Teasel’s Tudor Trivia, I explain the Great Chain of Being, the hierarchical structure of society, and the different levels of the nobility in the Tudor period.

I also explain why there could be numerous 1st Dukes, e.g. Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk, and his son-in-law, Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk.

115 thoughts on “Tudor Nobility”

  1. Michael Wright says:

    Your explanation is a big help in understanding the pecking order at court but where in the world did they get the idea that some people were better than other people? I can think of no place in the Bible where God mentions a class system. This system was instituted in cultures throughout the world. It’s a human construct to control the populace and saying it’s the way God intended was a way to justify it. We have a similar hierarchy in our government but not because it’s divinely ordained, it’ss just an efficient way to run things (in theory).

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Hi, Michael, no you are right except Kings and the priesthood and judges were appointed in the Torah as well as later books like Judges and Kings because the people moaned about needing leaders. Beyond that there was no class system to speak of although inevitably one grew up in the settled society. The most important part of settlement in the promised land was the division of the land which was based on the size of the tribes and family units. The land was of course to be inherited by sons and it was a patriarchal society, but Moses was challenged by the daughters of one of the heads of family. They had no brothers and told him straight they had toiled the same as everyone else and the law said that if no sons came along then the daughters were to inherit. No putting them aside to get a male heir, the girls inheritance was guaranteed. In the case of some noble titles the legal inheritance was tail male or sons only so the daughter had to inherit through her husband. A few titles allowed both male and female inheritance. Some women were co heirs with another relative. Anne Butler and the Ormonde Earldom in Ireland for example. This led to the dispute in the Boleyn and Butler families over the title. A class system is totally man made because people have always needed organising and it was always the way that someone would take the lead and probably end up as the leader. He would need some others to help and give orders and unfortunately the strongest might create a hierarchy and be top dog. I guess one just had to hope they would be a good ruler. Even if the ruler was the priest as in the Druids, the Celtic rulers, they would become an elite and even if they were equal to begin with, someone would be more successful and set themselves up with luxury or wealth above the other people. A Count or Earl was originally an official to control an area on behalf of the King called a county which is a Norman idea. The Franks used it. But the official was eventually given land of his own or took it and thus these titles evolved. The same was the case in the Church, the most powerful entity on earth in the Middle Ages, with the Pope, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops having land and being landlords. The higher clergy was just below the King even. It was a very swift process to form such a class society I think.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Wonderful explanation. Thank you BQ.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          You are welcome, Michael, but when you think about it some of us are just power hungry, others just lead, others follow and others oppress. Unfortunately, no matter how we fight against oppression, some people try to keep power.

  2. Christine says:

    You are correct Michael the bible does not mention a class system at all it was as you mention, just a system which evolved in countries throughout the world, thank you for explaining about the titles Claire, because I have often wondered how there can be so many first dukes and earls and barons of Sussex and Norfolk and Nottingham etc, it was lovely to see Teasel again also she obviously loves you very much, such an adorable little dog.

  3. Hans van Felius says:

    The hierarchy system in England was changing in Tudor times. Some historians blame the battles during the Wars of the Roses, when many of the aristocrats were killed. Which meant opportunities for new families. But the professionalisation of the administration proved to be a way of advancing in the hierarchy as well (see two of the best known examples, Thomas Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell). Another example: in 1488 Ralph Duncombe, a bondsman in the manor of Ivinghoe (Bucks) bought a manumision from his lord, the Bishop of Winchester, which made him and his four sons free men. Commoners, sometimes yeoman farmers, but due to the cultivation of sheep and the trade in wool both his surviving sons became very wealthy, and they were able to marry into the gentry and obtain manors, and later on, in the 18th century one of Ralphs descendants became Baron Feversham. And some of the gentry go down in the hierarchy and disappear into the class of yeoman farmers. At times I found the English class system to be rather confusing, when doing research.
    It is true the Bible does not give a class system. However, people have used Bible quotations to explain why there was a leading class and why there were servants or even slaves. I will have to dig deep to find a quote from a 16th century Dutch manuscript that uses Bible quotations to explain this. I thought I copied the page when I read it, but can’t find the copy right now…

    1. Christine says:

      Hi Hans, Ralph Duncombe is my distant ancestor they did indeed do very well, Sir Charles Duncombe in the reign of Charles 11 became a goldsmith and accumulated so much money, he lent some to the king, they were a most interesting family, some went abroad to America and the West Indies where they became sugar plantation and coffee plantation owners, originally from Buckinghamshire there is still the farm called Barley End farm in existence, the little church of St Mary Of Ivinghoe nearby where the family members were baptised, married and later laid to rest, there are some brass plaques of the family and they had their own pews being one of the prominent families of the district.

      1. Hans van Felius says:

        Well, what a surprise! You are “cousin” Christine then, since Ralph was my ancestor as well. Years ago I visited Duncombe Farm, St. Mary’s Ivinghoe I know very well. Was planning a visit again, while visiting the National Archives for some non Duncombe related research. And then Corona struck, so I will have to see if I can get there next year…

        1. Christine says:

          How very interesting it is indeed a small world, you are lucky to have visited the farm and the church, I havnt got around to doing so but maybe some day, the brass plaques in the church are of John Duncombe and his wife Alice Eglinton or Egleston, my ninth great grandparents, so glad you posted on this site, if you do not mind may I ask where you are from as your name sounds Dutch or Belgium thank you.

  4. Michael Wright says:

    Very interesting. Thank you.

  5. Michael Wright says:

    I’ve really enjoyed reading this conversation.

    1. Christine says:

      Small world isn’t it Michael?

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Hi Christine. Sure shows how over the centuries people have migrated to different parts of the world.
        Your comment reminds me of an old Steven Wright line: ‘It’s a small world but I wouldn’t want to paint it’.

        1. Christine says:

          Yes Iv heard that one!

  6. Hans van Felius says:

    Christine, I am Dutch.

    1. Christine says:

      Your English is excellent, it’s been very interesting conversing with you, very exciting to make contact with a distant relation.

  7. Banditqueen says:

    This is a really interesting discussion. The nobility certainly from the fourteenth century onwards did indeed begin to be added to from among the gentry and the merchant classes in particular.

    Hans and Christine have some very remarkable ancestors and its lovely to meet you, Hans.

    The nobility of England was very different to that of other countries and they were more parochial than their French counterparts. The lower nobility often did rise as much through service as through birth but they often faced opposition and derision by the higher and older nobles. The Boleyn family aspired to the nobility, coming from the merchant classes but with connections to the Butlers of Ireland who claimed the title of Earl of Ormonde, with Thomas and James Boleyn claiming it also through the female line. A marriage between Anne Boleyn and James Butler was meant to bring them that title. However, that didn’t come about and Thomas became Earl of Wiltshire by creation instead.

    A classic example of a family who rose through the ranks to become nobility and originally Earls and Dukes of Suffolk before falling from grace was the De La Poles. Around the crown and in merchant service since the 1290s, this family from Hull were rich enough to lend huge sums of money to the crown. This wasn’t a good idea because it often lead to trouble as the King rarely repaid those debts. William and Richard de la Pole as rich wool merchants financed the wars of Edward I and iii and received rewards as a result. However, as Edward iii lost money in his wars the fortunes of the family suffered, but they were influential enough to dominate the wool trade and be called to Parliament. The next generation, in Michael de la Pole rose through military service to knighthood and then to become Earl of Suffolk. Michael saw his career take off and flounder under Richard ii, losing his lands and position in the Merciless Parliament and dying in Paris. His son became the Second Earl although at first he had no lands. He saw service under Henry of Lancaster and died on campaign with Henry V. His brother also died shortly afterwards as the third Earl. His second son rose quickly under the next King Henry vi, being elevated to Duke of Suffolk. His royal master wasn’t interested in the wars with France and this William de la Pole was blamed for the disastrous peace in 1450. William the First Duke of Suffolk was accused of corruption, banished and then murdered as his ship was intervened by his enemies. His widow, Alice Chaucer, however, made certain her son, John de la Pole, the Second Duke was pushed into the political world he tried to avoid by somehow arranging to marry him to the daughter of Richard, Duke of York, Elizabeth, the sister of the future Edward iv and Richard iii. The family remained loyal to the House of York, the younger generation in the extreme. While the Second Duke stayed neutral even under Henry Vii, his sons caused trouble. John, Earl of Lincoln and a supporter of Richard iii raised an army to get rid of Henry Tudor and was killed at East Stoke in 1487. Edmund de la Pole, the next Duke fell out with Tudor and fled the country, pushing his claim from abroad. Eventually betrayed and forced to return, he was imprisoned by Henry Vii and remained in the Tower until he was beheaded by Henry Viii before his wars with France. The Last White Rose as he called himself, Richard de la Pole styled himself King Richard iv and Duke of Suffolk. He was killed fighting for the King of France in 1525 at the Battle of Pavia.

    The title of Duke of Suffolk was confiscated by King Henry viii who passed it off to his pal Sir Charles Brandon in 1514, again for military service alongside the entire De La Pole estates. Originally the title Duke in England was reserved for the son or brothers of the King, created as such by Edward I and iii. Their numerous sons bore the title Duke and from them came the numerous older families related to the royal family, including the Howards and the Neville family and the Dukes of Norfolk and Lancaster and so on. The Queen is presently the Duke of Lancaster as the Kings after Henry iv inherited the title. As Duke of Suffolk, Charles Brandon was looked down upon and resentment was often a problem with the rise of commoners to the higher nobility. A good number of the Dukes did fall during the so called Wars of the Roses but by then numerous members of ordinary professions were being appointed to official posts at Court for their talents rather than family name and so a wider variety of people entered at least the middle ranks of noble status and the gentlemen around the King.

  8. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. You’re absolutely right. Throughout history all over the world assassinations have been a common occurrence in order to remove someone in power so that someone else could wield that power. Not exactly humanity at it’s best.

  9. Michael Wright says:

    Thought you might all find this interesting. According to Axios who tracks these things, insurance claims in the United States due to damage caused by riots has reached 1 billion dollars. The highest in claims history.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Our actuary professional bodies such as Lloyds of London and ACAS do the same thing and the loss is always in several hundred millions or even billions because as you can imagine putting people back on their feet when homes are destroyed or an entire forest is staggering in expenses. My father was a loss adjuster for Maritime insurance and the loss of cargo and ships or damage in terms of money was always high. Unfortunately, insurance is also were the worst fraud takes place. Historically claims for cargo lost at sea could ruin a company which is why firms formed Lloyds to share the burden and underwrite the risk. The horrific part of claiming for cargo was that slaves were considered cargo and property. It was particularly horrible because the ship owners would off load or throw a number over board because they exceeded the capacity of the ship legally and they could claim for the loss of the cargo. This is what led to the Amistad mutiny and the trial proving that the slaves on board had been taken in British territory, where at that time slavery had been outlawed. Human traffic is of course evil but people found verses in Scripture to justify both slavery and oppose it. It was the trade which was the worst part because of the inhumane conditions on the ships and the cruelty. It makes me ill to think it is still happening, young girls and boys stolen from their homes and lured to work in posh homes or in the sex trade. Its brutal how people still behave even though its outlawed.

      In the eighteenth century the nobility behaved as if they could do no wrong, they brutalised servants, women, especially in brothels and the law protected them because they were the law. It was them who sat as magistrates or justices and who sat in Parliament and who owned the land. Land closures, common land enclosure that is and foot paths closed led to brutal punishment and in many cases hunger and injuries. If you struck a superior one might lose a hand or if you killed them, the death penalty was not hanging it was burning at the stake or quartering if you were a man. The nobles belonged to weird clubs like the Hell Fire Club as did most members of Parliament. You had to be male and own land to vote. As few people owned land that wasn’t many and intimidation was used to control voters. The word noble obviously didn’t mean someone who behaved in a gracious manner.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        When reading about American history I’ve come across similar accounts of the terrible things being done during the hey day of slavery in this country. I can’t think of anything bad enough to describe the idea of owning another human being.
        I had never heard of the Amistad incident until Spielberg’s movie came out. I couldn’t believe that something so important was not in any of the books I read or that I’d never seen a documentary about it. Thank you BQ.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          Hi Michael, it was vaguely heard about but really not well known before the film. I don’t think I have seen a documentary but have recently watched the film again after getting a book, not on the ship but the trial and the aftermath. When we think about the landmark changes this had in both American and British history and the consequences for the trade, its mind blowing that it wasn’t better known. One reason it might not be was that it took place in America whilst slavery was still legal there. A number of landmark legal trials took place to challenge ownership. A few were famous because they were successful and I recently found them while looking for a new book on the subject. I have also a book on Spartacus Toussaint Louverture the Black Napoleon who raised a violent rebellion in Hatti and freed the slaves. The subject is so wide and diverse that there are too many to choose from. I have a basket full of ones for the future. The Washingtons might have been a decent couple who inherited most of the slaves but they were not going to give up when one ran off. She was never caught and had a second family in one of the free states. The Gradual Emancipation Law had a hole in it. If you were there for six months then you could claim emancipation. But if you went out for a day you had to start again. The Washingtons took Martha home for a day and she had to start again. She did, then learned that they planned the same to stop her. At a grand dinner she snuck out of the back door and to a safe house. Her tale is in Never Caught. Andrew Burns won his right to freedom after a trial on ownership. Wasn’t there a slave who spied for and helped Washington called Fanny who won her freedom? A number earned freedom in the regiment they served in under Washington as well. He also had a second in command who was his slave but was freed called William. I am sorry but for some reason all the names are escaping me. I am being hounded by my energy company at the moment for money they have lost and not credited to my account. They seem to have gone into denial as its happened to hundreds of people who have trying to get answers but these email letters keep coming out every few days. You wouldn’t mind but the Team leader insisted that the payment was made and on the account and it clearly isn’t and I have proof. I have complained but its really worn me out. I have have ME and get exhausted very quickly. My doctor has put me on the anti depression treatment again for three months as I was not sleeping. I can’t concentrate. I’m going away next weekend for ten days and I have someone preparing a letter for the Ombudsman to get a deadlock letter and then they step in. Hopefully I’ll get some sense when I get back.

          Have you heard of our two escaped regicide men, Edward Whalley and William Goffe who were among the first people who signed the death warrant of Charles l? They escaped and had a number of wild adventures in Connecticut and were helped by a number of local Puritan communities in America. The English agents of Charles ii pursued them for years but had to give up in the end. Too many people agreed with their actions. I think they saw it as righteous and the Geneva Bible has notes which emphasis a number of verses to disobey the King or even dispose of them. The Declaration of Arbroath which is the Scottish Declaration of Independence which was also blessed by the Pope, says not only will they never bow to English tyranny but they will take up arms against any King who does. It gives the people the right to remove an unreasonable leader. The Book of Exodus was held by people who fought for freedom and liberty against tyranny for centuries once it was released in English. The King James was a benchmark for justice and freedom. In other words a King or leader is a very fine thing but they still have to do what is right for the people. Our leaders may swear themselves in on the Bible but I really don’t think many of them actually read it. They might get a shock.

  10. Michael Wright says:

    Most of what you mentioned I was not aware of. It wouldn’t surprise me if Washington had a slave who worked as I spy but the name Fanny is not familiar. I also was not aware of the two gentleman who signed the death warrent.

    Going back to Amistad, you are probably aware that Spielberg had not heard of it either, it was brought to his attention by Debbie Allen who was also a producer on the film.

    What is happening to customer service? My friend in Western NY ordered a couple of items from two different companies and they had both been shipped by the 10th of this month. FedEx was supposed to deliver them after receiving them from USPS. The last tracking was 9/12. Neither USPS or FedEx now where they are. They’re coming from Eastern Pennsylvania which is literally just across the border from Buffalo where she lives. It seems that since no one sees your face you can be ignored. It sounds like the type of thing that you’re dealing with. Good luck with getting that mess straightened out. Utility companies are a pain.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Thanks, yes I had something once banush into the land of “we don’t know where it is or what happened to it”. The parcel was coming from Southport which is 40 minutes by train. Its part of Merseyside. You go for an afternoon walk on the prom or the Victorian shops. I could have collected the parcel had I known it was going to vanish into “thin air” another mysterious world things get lost in. I bet customer service know exactly what they have done wrong, they just won’t admit it. The problem with the utility companies is that they can cut you off. It’s highly unlikely but as nobody is actually working in the office, the process is not going to be stopped and a lot of people have complained on social media, including me. The watchdog has no teeth and doesn’t get onto them and of course Covid is the excuse of the day. They claim to be working normally but they obviously can’t cope with the volume of complaints and have buried their heads in the sand like an ostrich. I have had enough of them and will be filing a legal claim when we get home from our holidays. Just one more week to go. Arnside or bust.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Another problem with utilities is unlike other businesses if you are dissatisfied you can go to a competitor, your stuck with them. I do hope all the bad press smacks some sense into them. The fact that it’s so many customers should prove the problem is at their end.

        1. Michael Wright says:

          Should read ‘can’t go to a competitor’.

        2. Banditqueen says:

          Hi Michael, in the U. K we can switch if our fixed rate period is up and you owe less than £500.00 and even then as long as you make an arrangement you can switch. My twelve months is up today but according to the estimated billing which is not correct I owe more than £500.00. I have complained because the amount is not credited to my account of £330.00 plus an adjustment of £65.00 and a credit of £35.00. I have screenshot of the account and bank statement and they admitted that the Payment was made but its still not credited after another two weeks. Now they are still ignoring me and the automated email still popped out. They have billed some poor gentleman 16 months after his wife died of cancer and they closed his account. They are in a mess. They have taken on too many people last year and are too small. They should not be sending debt letters to anyone. The problem is definitely at their end. Some people think they are going out of business. I would not be surprised. I am going to switch in any case but I want this sorted out. I have had an email from the CAB who help with this sort of thing and they have asked me to contact them and they will help so I will do that ASAP. I can’t wait to get away next week.

          My mum is 92 and her TV died last week so we have a new one being delivered today. Trying to get her out before we go away. She complains about being in and then won’t go. I really don’t know. Oh well.

  11. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. Here in the US whoever services your area is it, no choices.
    If you’ve got screenshots of this I’m guessing others do too. I just don’t see how the company has a leg to stand on to defend their actions.

  12. Banditqueen says:

    Neither do I, they are in big trouble and they really need to admit it. They will have to defend themselves in court or forfeit and I can get a default judgement against them. I will be filing on my return home. The entire thing is a mess. Years ago we were nationalised so British Gas ran everywhere for utilities and Man Web for electricity. Water is still whoever is in the area. I am seriously thinking of going back to British Gas, better service even though it might be more expensive. These so called clean energy companies need to clean up their act and we need a revolution. Power to the people. In 1381 the people of Kent and Sussex had the right idea. The people had the right idea in 1789 in France as well.

    1. Michael Wright says:

      We have clean energy options here in Oregon but because the cost is souch higher few people are opting in which has caused some problems.

    2. Hans van Felius says:

      oh dear, 1789? Are you planning to call in Mme Guillotine?

      1. Banditqueen says:

        Only for the heads of utility companies lol; if you will excuse the pun. I am not planning a mass extinction of the nobles, not when they can be put to some useful work. Up the Revolution.

    3. Christine says:

      What annoys me are these companies that somehow acquire your number and start of the conversation with ‘can I ask you a few questions as part of a survey‘, your age sex etc, a load of other personal questions, then towards the end they ask you what energy company your with, it’s all to try to get you to switch your energy over to them, I just hang up now, there’s also people in my local town standing around asking you what energy supplier your with, they say they’ll only take five minutes and it goes on for fifteen, one day it was rainy cold and miserable and I said to one guy, ‘people do not want to stand in the street on a rainy cold day answering questions about their energy supplier‘, there’s some group that are always up there most folk just rush past and ignore them, you are right Bq, British Gas is expensive but less hassle, I hope you get it sorted, you have a lovely holiday to look forward to, more covid restrictions appear to be on the way but it was inevitable really.

  13. Banditqueen says:

    Thanks Christine, yes, next weekend I am off. The restrictions hit Merseyside on Tuesday but to be honest the only real difference is the pubs have to close early and you can’t mingle outside your bubble or household which is all we do anyway. You can still travel in your bubble or household and that’s fine. There are no restrictions in Arnside beyond the normal ones so I will be like the nobility escaping to my country retreat. Its really odd, but we don’t have symptoms and are not in quarrentine and the social distance rules apply everywhere as do face coverings. The pubs closing early in the football capital of the world should be a good laugh. This I have got to see. I hope everyone keeps to the rules and helps to stop the virus. I have avoided busy places and stayed pretty much out of the way of people. Arnside is pretty quiet so it will be a nice relaxing time.

    1. Christine says:

      That’s good and hopefully the weather will stay fine.

      1. Hans van Felius says:

        Banditqueen, I hope you have a nice stay!

        1. Banditqueen says:

          Thanks Hans, looking forward to it. Plenty of countryside, the beach, walks and history and we are always well looked after at the Willowfield. The village has managed to survive Covid and all the little cafes are still there and open. The two pubs are still open and it’s as if time never moves there. Plenty of history as well and local gardens and woodland to explore and abbeys. Five days to go.

        2. Banditqueen says:

          I was dreaming about this post last night. Its odd what stuff stays in the mind. I don’t know about many other countries but here from the eighteenth century onwards and probably before but on a bigger scale then, in order to get a Bill through the upper house, that’s the House of Lords the King or Queen just made a lot of new peers in the Tory or Whig party and told them to vote for their law. For example Queen Anne needed more Tories to vote to end the war with France and although they were amenable because war meant a tax on land, she needed to be certain that they were definitely going to be on her side so she created 20 new ones. This practice has led to hundreds of people from ordinary life, well owners of middle class land or homes or shops being made peers of the realm. Also today we have a system called the Birthday honours and New Years list which rewards ordinary people from sport and politics and entertainment and the community with a knighthood, an honour called a Citizen of the British Empire or Order British Empire, a Dame or even a peership. Most are life peers so that the title cannot be passed on. It’s to honour those who have served others rather than themselves. I don’t know how many peers we have but if we go to BURKS peerage that tells you all of them and if you have an ancient history in the family you will find the peer in the family there as well. By the way you can actually purchase a title and change your name but of course it has to be not in the gift of the Queen or a inherited line. You can also buy a family coat of arms. The collage of arms can help you with your arms because there are strict rules on what you can have and you may already have one. They can also verify your claim to one. You can claim to be a gentleman or gentle woman and gain certain benefits. William Shakespeare claimed to be a gentleman on behalf of his father, John. You had to dress a certain way, the type of material you wore was restricted by law and you were expected to be able to support a certain lifestyle and income. Mind you that was probably in case the Queen popped in for a few days.

          I really can’t imagine that sort of prancing about but I certainly would not say no to the money.

        3. Banditqueen says:

          Off tomorrow, weekend and next few days going to be fine weather.

  14. Michael Wright says:

    Hi all. Just wanted to say that we’ve had quite a bit of rain over the last couple of days and the smoke has cleared out. Highs in the mid 60’s. Much nicer.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Thank goodness for that, it must have felt like it was never going to end. Take care.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        You too. Have a safe and fun trip.

    2. Christine says:

      That’s good news Michael, here in north London the weathers been quite chilly, our heatwave has left us and it’s been very windy today, Bq hope you have a lovely holiday and the weathers fine for you.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Glad your heat wave is over. I would much rather have it cool than hot. I can easily warm up if I’m cold but cooling down is another matter. It’s 3pm, rainy and 59°. We’re supposed to get into the 70’s over the next few days but nothing too warm.

        1. Christine says:

          Yes the early seventies I find is an acceptable heat, I know what you mean it is much easier to warm up than cool down, too much heat is unbearable, iv just put my heating on was feeling rather chilly.

  15. Michael Wright says:

    I just opened my bedroom window to get it cool. Ideally at least 65 but anythimg under 70 is good.

  16. Banditqueen says:

    Hi, just an update. Going to Piel Island tomorrow where Lambert Simnel landed in 1487 from Ireland with his Irish and Flanders army.

    He had been crowned Edward V or Vi, the York Books is our only source and it does not say which. A i was added later to the V. In his letter to the people of York the boy King didn’t use any numbers but described himself as King Edward. John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln led the army which was defeated in June that year in Staffordshire at East Stoke. He had a good claim to the crown himself, his father being married to Princess Elizabeth, sister of Edward iv and Richard iii. The family had attended Richard iii coronation and John took a leading part but the Duke of Suffolk as his father was submitted to the rule of Henry Tudor. It was the aim originally to free the real Earl of Warwick, son of George, Duke of Clarence and set him up as King and for Francis Lovell a devoted friend of King Richard to assassinate Henry in York. This went wrong and Lovell vanished into the mists of history and myth. He was wounded and went to his home but nothing more was ever heard from him. He had a secret basement room which was found bricked up in the eighteenth century. A skeleton of a man, fully clothed at his writing desk was found and it was assumed to be the lost injured Francis Lovell having died whilst in hiding. His mother and wife were still being questioned by the King and his agents years later as to the wearabouts of Lovell who was considered highly dangerous by the paranoid Tudor regime.

    It’s also believed by many people today that the official version of the plots and conspiracy of 1486/7 is a load of nonsense. Andre himself in Henry’s biography gives hints of confusion about the real identity of the individual who was meant to replace Henry Tudor. I believe with others that John de la Pole abandoned the idea of putting Warwick on the throne very early on and used this as arouse. The Dublin King, crowded in Dublin Cathedral was clearly more than ten years old, possibly sixteen, the same age that Edward V would have been. The boy found on the battlefield was merely ten or twelve, the same age as Warwick but Warwick was still in the Tower. I think John de la Pole used the boy Lambert as a puppet, he was left on the battle field, but the leader was de la Pole. He was killed nut his intentions are unknown. A real scenario exists in which he intended to be the next King and replace Henry himself. He never gave his true intentions away because of his father who remained loyal to King Henry. The Duke of Suffolk and Elizabeth the Duchess remained in favour. Lincoln led the army and recruited the boy. I believe Lambert was a ruse and he was not the real pretender. Lincoln was intending to take the crown. The boy was left in order to fool the Tudor regime whose version was that he was pretending to the Earl of Warwick and the real Warwick was in the Tower. The boy was shown mercy and put to work in the Royal kitchens.

    Piel Island has a castle built by the Abbots of Furness Abbey where Lambert and his party were entertained and there is a pub with a chair on which the boy was said to be crowned. Here a new landlord is crowned and you can sit there and be King for the Day but you have to buy everyone a round. You can still have a photo taken. So we are going to the Abbey, one of the most important religious houses in the North of England and one of the last to be closed. The handover was peaceful. We hope the ferry is running and over to the island and then to the castle.

    We went to the original home of the ancestors of George Washington today at Warton but the Church was closed so we are going back on Wednesday. Honestly everyone is obsessed with the App. We have not downloaded it and nor will we be. We are just leaving our details if asked. The village is a bit changed but more or less the same. We have been coming now for 21 years on and off, several times a year in the old days. The estuary is very calm and there has been a lot of bird life today on the sands. The Willowfield is closing after 70 years as a BB to be a private home again at the end of October so if we come again we will have to stay at the pub instead or the holiday flat next-door. An alternative is the Malden Duck in Cartmel were we have had lunch a few times and looks beautiful. Cartmel has a Church which was part of the Abbey, where ten people were killed by Cromwell and his regimes and yet the local people brought the Abbey to save the Church. The fourteenth century gate is still there and the free lances, the Steel Bonnets used to raid the town from the borders of Scotland which was much further down back then. We will visit them later in the week.

    Saturday and Sunday were beautiful days, today was fine until late afternoon but tomorrow is going to be beautiful again and the rest of the week locally looks good. I am blogging from the lounge. Take care and stay safe.

    1. Michael Wright says:

      Sounds like your having a good rest. Enjoyed the history. If you get a chance please give us a report on your visit to Piel Island. Thanks BQ.

      1. Banditqueen says:

        Certainly will. Take care.

        1. Christine says:

          Glad your having nice weather, we are having the odd shower but on Monday the weather was beautiful about 18 degrees and clear blue sky’s, was hoping to hear from you, the discovery of Francis Lovell’s remains sounds grim, it must be every time human remains are found, but for historical figures – very fascinating! thank you for sharing your journeys with us Bq, enjoy the rest of your holiday and keep us updated.

  17. Michael Wright says:

    Historic Royal Palaces podcast has posted a new episode you may be interested in: Black Tudors in England during the 16th century.

    1. Christine says:

      Sounds interesting Michael thank you, how’s the weather across the pond?

      1. Michael Wright says:

        Gorgeous and quite pleasant. Last week we had a couple of days in the 60’s and raining and over the last few upper 70’s/lower 80’s with blue sky. It does cool off quickly which is nice for sleeping. We have smoke again from the fires in California but you can’t see it during the day. I saw it last night because it made the full moon appear orange.

        1. Christine says:

          I bet that looked stunning though of course the fires were a terrible thing, it is getting chilly here in the evenings and more gloom – their talking of another lockdown Christmas appears to be cancelled, I just cannot wait for this dismal year to end.

        2. Banditqueen says:

          That’s interesting, Michael. I have the book Black Tudors which shows how important they were in society and as we in the know, know they were here from the Roman period at least. Henry Viii had a black herald trumpeter and band and you can see him in the tapestry showing the Westminster tournament to celebrate the birth of Prince Henry of Cornwall in 1511. You can see Katherine looking pretty and happy and waving from her box with her ladies. It was interesting to me that in the book that a number of black people were in positions of authority. I will certainly be watching the podcast.

          We could only go as far as the landing place to look over to Piel island because someone fell off a boat and the ferry which was a speed boat had to help out. It was a good place to see the castle where Lambert Simnel was hosted and the armies met him. It was a beautiful day. We stayed for a time and then going to Furness Abbey where he waited to meet up with the army from Flanders, after we had caused more chaos than covid by turning up without booking. We had to book there and then on our phones and we had the Abbey to ourselves more or less. Its obviously a grand complex and building in its day as you can see how magnificent it was even now. The Abbey was the greatest landowner in the North of England and had several daughter houses. The hand over here was peaceful. It wasn’t in others like Cartmel or Dalton and Barrow. Cartmel had some martyrs, ten ordinary people. We have had a wet day with some dry bits today but went to Kendal the birth place of Katherine Parr. We are going back tomorrow and we saw the Church associated with the ancestors of George Washington today. The weather here looks great for the rest of the week. Enjoying the rest.

  18. Christine says:

    Bet that looked stunning although of course the fires were a terrible thing, we have had endless rain today and the evenings are very chilly now, there’s talk of another lockdown and Christmas appears to be cancelled, I just cannot wait for this dismal year to be at an end.

  19. Michael Wright says:

    Hello Christine and BQ Thank you for the update BQ. I’m really glad you got as close to Piel as you did. It sounds lucky that you got that close seeing’s how you showed up without booking. I’m imagining that the rain would make an historical area like that feel rather atmospheric and a bit eerie. I was not aware of the church that Washington’s ancestors were associated with. Do you have any more information on that?

    regarding the Moon it was fantastic. A nice big Harvest Moon with an orange tint. Looked like something perfect for Halloween.

  20. Michael Wright says:

    Hello Christine and BQ Regarding the Moon it was fantastic. Nice big full Harvest Moon with an orange tint. Looked like something perfect for Halloween.

    Thank you for the information PQ Sorry it was such a bother to get onto that boat and that you didn’t get to make it all the way to peel. Sounds like it’s lucky though that you got as close as you did since you hadn’t booked yet. At least you’re able to book on your phone so that shouldn’t have been too much of a bother. The rain sounds like it would have made an historic place like that rather atmospheric and Erie Which seems the perfect setting.

  21. Michael Wright says:

    hello Christine and BQ. Regarding the Moon it was fantastic. Nice big full Harvest Moon with an orange tint.

    Thank you for the information BQ sorry you weren’t able to make it all the way to the island. It sounds quite fortunate that you even made it as far as you did since you hadn’t booked ahead of time but I’m glad you were able to book on your phones which shouldn’t have been too difficult. weather atmospheric and Erie which would be perfect considering the history.

  22. Michael Wright says:

    I apologise for the multiple posts. It didn’t post as usual and I thought I was having internet problems.

    1. Christine says:

      That’s ok, I was having difficulty to, I see my comments have posted twice as the first one didn’t appear to go through.

  23. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. I forgot to mention the podcast is with Miranda Kaufmann and Michael Ohajaru. Are these names familiar.

    I have seen that illustration of Henry VII’s black musician. First time I saw it I was a bit surprised but it is wonderful.

    1. Christine says:

      Yes I was very surprised to, for my birthday my sister bought me several books by Amy Licence, and one which really intrigued me was a book about the ladies in waiting who served at the Tudor court, I havnt read it yet but am looking forward to doing so, one rarely hears about those who served the kings and queens yet they all have their own stories to tell.

      1. Michael Wright says:

        I agree. It doesn’t seem to matter what era we’re talking about. I’m guessing that a lot more information is available on the higher-ups than those who served them.

  24. Michael Wright says:

    An observation you might find interesting. Though I can’t see it directly there is obviously smoke at a very high altitude. At 6pm I was able to look at the sun directly and it was a bright pumpkin orange. Very beautiful. At least it’s not at ground level like it was a couple of weeks ago.

    1. Christine says:

      You are lucky Michael to be able to see the sun, it’s like a monsoon where I am, my poor cats are stuck indoors, they get so bored when it’s raining, thought I’d let you know the charity shop I worked at is closing down and we are having a sale to shift everything, all clothes are a pound boots are three pound and most items are 50p, bric a brac is valued according to its quality and provenance, I was back in there yesterday and it was fun serving the customers and just being there again after so long an absence, like the good old days but of course it was not, because our darling Paula was not there, and little Billie the cat who lived in the shop to, she had a thyroid problem and died not long after Paula, I picked up a few bargains for myself, I was in fact only going in there to browse and when I saw how exhausted my boss Sue and her hubby were I offered to help, I’m back in Saturday afternoon as well, and for the next few months till all the stock is sold, we have had plenty of donations over the summer and Sue and her husband have been busy sorting it all out, we still have to shift the Halloween and Christmas gear, the shop was so busy all day and we were meant to close at 4pm but stayed open till five, we let six in at a time as the shop is quite small, it was very sad still as it’s the end of an era and a few customers expressed regret at its closing, i was there three years and loved every minute, I have got another job however in another charity shop not far from me in Chingford, from my local town it’s just a bus ride away, it helps raise money for ill and abandoned and abused animals in Sri Lanka, iv been there about six weeks and it’s great doing something worthwhile again, I prefer working for animal charities as animals haven’t a voice and therefore cannot speak for themselves, but I will always cherish my time I spent in The Scratching Post and of course with dear Paula.

  25. Michael Wright says:

    Hi Christine. Cats do not like the sounds of that weather or anything that upsets their routine. Hope you get a break from that. The rainy season has usually started by now here. What’s been odd is how wrong the forecasts have been for the last week. Every day without exception 5-6° warmer than forecast. I don’t ever remember that happening. Maybe the fires have affected forecasting ability.
    Sorry to hear the shop is closing but it’s nice that you and the other people in the shop are able to say a proper goodbye to it. Also sorry to hear about the shop kitty. I wonder if Paula’s passing may also have contributed to her demise.
    I love what you and your charity shop do for animals. There are too many out there who have been abused or abandoned or worse. With the terrible year we’ve had it’s so nice to hear something positive.
    We’re still stuck indoors here. I don’t know if it’s necessary but it’s the governor’s orders so I’ve been watching a lot of DVDs.

    1. Christine says:

      Hi I was thinking the same about Billie, she had been ill treated and did not take to people very well, they were unable to re home her at the cattery as she would attack everyone and it took a long time for her to trust people, Paula was marvellous with her and expressed regret at the lockdown as she was unable to take her to her house, she had two dogs so that was impossible, so her boyfriend had her but he told me she died a week after Paula, she must have missed her terribly which I believe could have contributed a little to her demise, animals do suffer from grief and separation from a loved one the same as humans, she learnt to grow very fond of Colin and he was so upset when she died as he had lost another link to Paula, he buried her under the patio of the garden where the charity shop is, I think now she’s reunited with Paula as they both would have wished, you enjoy your DVD’s Michael, at the moment I’m hooked on Judge Judy she’s such a laugh but I don’t think I would ever want to be facing her across a courtroom, she’s pretty terrifying!

  26. Michael Wright says:

    I agree with you about Judge Judy. I like her, I’ve seen her in interviews but I would not want to be in a trial that she presides over. After what you said about Billie I’m not surprised that she died so soon after Paula did. I’ll bet there are plenty of pets who are affected that way like humans are after their masters died. Or in the case of cats after their slaves died. Do you remember back in December of 2016 Carrie Fisher died on the 27th and her mom Debbie Reynolds who she was very close to died the next day on the 28th? Also, my friend in Buffalo NY a couple of years ago sent me an article from her neck of the woods about an elderly couple in the hospital who were both in pretty rough shape and the staff was kind enough to put their beds in the same room right next to each other l. The wife passed away first and the husband died just a few hours later. There is no doubt that a person or an animal can die from a broken heart. In the case of Billie I’ll bet it was because she realized is that the one person who understood her was no longer there for her. As sensitive as animals are it wouldn’t surprise me if Billie actually felt Paula’s passing. But like you said they’re reunited now which is really nice.

    1. Christine says:

      Yes I think you are right, I do recall when Carrie Fisher died and her mum sadly followed her not long after, I think people when their grief stricken can give up the ghost, they believe life isn’t worth living anymore, I think if their quite old to they are more prone to falling victim to the grim reaper, my aunt and uncle were 94 and 96, my uncle who was the younger died suddenly Boxing Day some years ago, my aunt was in shock and had to go to hospital, my other aunt told me she didn’t want to live having lost the love of her life, they had been married about sixty years and two weeks later she to passed away, when a person is widowed young they have more of a need to overcome the grief they are feeling, people tell them they are young, time heals etc, which is true, we never stop grieving we just learn to live with it and go forward, try to live our life the best we can, most people meet someone else and are very happy, but when you are very old and have been with your partner for a long time the situation is completely different, and animals as we have said are prone to those same feelings of grief and sadness, I get so upset when I see poachers in the wild taking baby animals away from their mothers the poor things are squealing in pain, man can be so awful, the good thing is thanks to media people are aware of those things happening and are trying to stop it, and we have as you mentioned, wonderful charities where we try to help animals the best we can.

  27. Banditqueen says:

    Hi All,

    Yes Michael, Miranda Kaufman is the author of the book I mentioned. I am in a pub as its raining, the first we have really had, the connection isn’t great and I keep getting funny messages like Origin Error so this is a short post. I am not a fan of Mr Trump but I hope he gets better soon. Mountain mist lifting so the sun will be back soon. I will check in with some good information later.

  28. Banditqueen says:

    I think I am posting in a bubble because I seem to be getting responses that don’t make any sense.

    I may have sent a crossed wire the other day.

    No we had clear weather on Roe Island looking over to Piel and the ferry was running but an accident meant he was helping with a marine accident. The castle and island were very clear and there are telescope to see closely. Just sat down for a bit. No we decided to go to Furness Abbey near Dalton and English Heritage said we had to book. We were going on spec because our plans had changed so we had to go on a website and book on the spot and then our tickets came out there and then and in we went. The Abbey was wonderful and huge, very peaceful and one of the last to surrender. In the museum was a coin of Philip and Mary, very rare and only time joint monarchs have appeared on same side facing each other. Museum had lots of old English coins as well as a wide collection of local information. I wasn’t too into the natural history stuffed animals but that was the way out. The Egyptian stuff was interesting as well as the Author Wainwright a famous mountain walker exhibition.

    CHEERS for now. Take care.

    1. Christine says:

      Sounds great glad you are enjoying yourselves, the coin sounds fascinating bet it’s worth a lot as it so rare, I would love to see the Abbey I think they are so beautiful, I always think it was sacrilege that Henry V111 destroyed them, my friends going to Eastbourne on Monday for a few days but the weather forecast doesn’t look too great, keep us updated with your tours.

  29. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. How great to see that coin in person.

  30. Banditqueen says:

    One of the most important finds in the excavation at Furness was the grave of a Bishop from 1374 who had his crossier, that’s the golden head of his staff, which he was buried with and the ring on his finger with jewellery in it.
    The Museum had many graves and effigies and stone work. Interesting and fine workmanship.

  31. Michael Wright says:

    Hi BQ. for that to still be intact after so many centuries is remarkable. The conditions of his grave must have been very ideal. I watched a Time Team last week from series 14that took place on the Isle of Man and they had come across the grave of a woman in her thirties that was 1400 years old, there was no dirt in her grave or water and she still had part of her braided hair at the base of her skull. It is amazing what can sometimes survive. Thank you for sharing that.

  32. Banditqueen says:

    Some other historical highlights of our holidays which I came back from today were

    Cartmel Abbey founded by William Marshall in 1187 and the Harrington Chapel there… A local family with lots of history and a beautiful crucifix above the tomb of John Harrington. His great granddaughter met Richard Duke of Gloucester who protected her inheritance from Thomas Lord Stanley who wanted her for his son, when he was 18 and basically she is one of the candidates for the mother of one of his illegitimate children.
    The Abbey surrendered but was restored in 1537 when the monks returned. They also stopped the King’s men stealing their grain, stored to feed the local population and ten people were executed for treason. The Young Martyr statue commemoration of this event.
    The Parr Chapel in Kendal found by Katherine’s grandfather.
    Kendal Castle home of the Parr family but not the birthplace of Catherine, although the myth lives on.
    The Bellingham Chapel Kendal
    The Quaker House Yealand and graffiti from the eighteenth century.

    The Quaker George Fox visited here and Kendal and was almost arrested in the Church there.
    The famous Quaker Tapestry and Chocolate House and Shop
    Sawley Abbey on the last Day and Kirkby Lonsdale. Sawley and Whalley are very famous for the Pilgrimage of Grace.

    Had a great time. Now just relax and feet up.

    1. Michael Wright says:

      It really sounds like you had a fun time. Thank you so much for sharing.

      1. Banditqueen says:

        You are very welcome. It was a bit weird with very odd interpretation of the new Covid restrictions.

        The pubs in some bits didn’t close at 10 and others did because they were in Cumbria not Lancashire. The national 10p.m came in while we were there but one pub served you outside. One cafe didn’t ask us any details, so we went back three times. The Albion did everything properly but the Fighting Cock thought the App is law and it isn’t, so we didn’t bother. The others were a bit please can we but not too bothered, we like them best. One had an App thing in the corner which was ignored and asked as you left for details, went back there as well. The new rules of wearing a mask to go two inches in the cafe door and take it off at the table and on again to go to the loo make no sense at all. The science does not support it. Nor do most cafes and pubs. I have only been asked once. I had my badge on so that was O. K. I do wear one in close proximity to people but I can’t keep it on long so I had my badge on. To be honest most places don’t ask you. The Museum didn’t. Nor did the Churches we went to. They just assume you are exempt which is correct. I carry my badge through in case some fool freaks out. It happened on a bus with a deaf man in Liverpool, some hysterical woman leaping up and down, not social distance and screaming and pointing at him. She started the mob off and the driver put him off the bus.

        He is legally entitled to not wear a mask as he needs to lip read. The public lampooned the woman and the poor man received an apology and compensation but what an ordeal. The gentleman who asked me was very polite and soon understood I had a badge. I wasn’t wearing it because it was packed in my bag. The staff could not do enough either and were very helpful. Believe me when it comes to the rules on Covid restrictions confusing does not cover it.

  33. Michael Wright says:

    At least in your neck of the woods attempts are sorta being made to get back to some kind of normalcy. Our governor held a press conference this morning and she still isn’t allowing the state to open up. She is doing irreparable harm.

    1. Christine says:

      Roll on 2021!

  34. Michael Wright says:

    Yes!!!

  35. Banditqueen says:

    Scotland cannot serve alcohol after 6p.m unless serving food from tomorrow and again the wrong people are targeted. I saw a bunch of two groups of young people pretending to be socially separate groups, clearly not, no social distance at all when shopping. That’s how it spreads not in social distance pubs with strict protocols.

    I have news about my energy company and they put all my money on the account so they claimed last week and apologised but here is the good bit, I couldn’t check until I got home because of connection problems and when I did yesterday, Tonik Energy have crashed and are no longer trading. My gas and electricity company have gone bust. Nobody can sign in and the attachments are not a download but a link which means I can’t access the account to check the information is correct. The good news is our supply is guaranteed and we will eventually be moved. The bad news is that we don’t know what that means for refunds or paying. I have told them I am unavailable until 18th October as I have more important things to do which is true so I will sort it then. I have had enough of them. At least no more letters will appear. A number of these companies have gone bust. I think Tonik deserve it because of the way they have treated their customers although I feel for their ordinary staff. What a saga.

    1. Christine says:

      Iv never heard of Tonik Energy, but they sound pretty useless must be to make the mistakes they made and then to go bust, regarding the Covid regulations, I think London maybe heading for a two week lockdown or at least the pubs and restaurants will close, yet the experts say it is not the drinkers who are spreading the virus, but the school children as the rate went up when the schools opened, the 10pm curfew did no good, the pubs were not any less full, rather more people crammed into the pubs and most got there earlier to make up for the lost hour, in the bus last week the driver let so many children on the bus some lady started having a go at him, she said ‘how can this be social distancing’? she explained she’s a nurse and she sees people die every day, now they don’t let so many on yet it’s common sense, at a funeral recently a son was not allowed to hug his grieving mother yet the tubes and buses as mentioned are still crowded, as Bq says, the very rich and the royals are not too affected by Covid, yet the queen has her annual family gathering at Christmas which means they will also be affected, on a lighter note, Boris says he may bend the rules at Christmas, lessen the meeting of household restrictions, he had better do something of it will be a cheerless Yuletide for many.

  36. Banditqueen says:

    Of course the nobility will not be affected by these Covid rules and are probably happy in their mansions while the rest of us have to get on with life. Nothing has changed.

  37. Michael Wright says:

    you’ve got your Royals, and we’ve got our Governors and mayor’s who feel the rules don’t apply to them. What you were saying about what’s going on with the electric company Sounds good but it’s just terrible that you have no way to confirm what they told you. It seems this whole situation is just out of control. I do hope that what you were told is correct. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this mess.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Cheers. The company is being taken over by the regulator now and they can’t do anything else. I can just wait until its convenient to take the case to them. That will get me compensation. Its probably why they suddenly sorted it out.

  38. Michael Wright says:

    This action sounds like something that should have been done a long time ago. Hope you don’t have to wait forever to bring your case. It seems to be moving in a positive direction albeit slowly.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Yes. I have told them I am not available for the next two weeks anyway as have several appointments, you know hair, massage and flu jab and a medical check out and more importantly my osteopath. I am having my nails done as well.

      Getting there slowly. I will ask for a paper bill instead after that. The BBC are somewhere in Israel and not joking there is a Christmas tree in the background.

      1. Christine says:

        I’m thinking of having a flu jab but the last time I had one, I felt rough a few days later, however because I always used to get flu at Christmas and as a result had to have time of work I decided to have one every year, for about five years I never got the flu, I am not really very optimistic with the flu vaccine as the virus mutates but it did keep me flu free for several years, because of Covid I’m thinking maybe it will be a good idea to have one as flu makes you vulnerable to other infections, it is nice having a bit of pampering, especially having a manicure, having a coffee and a chat with ones beautician is a nice relaxing way to spend the day.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          I have had mine. I have to think about if Steve got cancer back and I can’t look after him.

          We both have it. Its good to make sure you are feeling well on the day so boost immune system and eat good, then have it. I had it too early last year and wasn’t 100% on the day. Went for a long walk afterwards and it was the first time in years got anything bad. This year had at the right time and rested. Feeling good. It’s better to have it, I believe. You might also ask about the pneumonia vaccine depending on your age. It lasts for a couple of years.

          We are in Tier 3. Of course we can go to London and play cricket after hours. The young nuts had a last pub party in town last night. And people wonder why we are in Tier 3!

  39. Banditqueen says:

    HI Michael, we have mayors as well who are all squarking and the equivalent of a governor will be the unelected regional mayor who are useless.

    1. Christine says:

      I agree Sadiq Khan is useless !

  40. Banditqueen says:

    I agree with most of the restrictions, but some people are actively flouting them and I guess the school bus is as bad as it ever was.

    Children under eleven cannot spread it we are told but I don’t believe anyone has told the virus as vulnerable children can get it and take it home to mum, dad and grandparents. Really daft if buses don’t have social distances and schools do. Its not the local pubs or eating places. Do you know how many times I have been asked if I have the App for track and trace? Neither do I, its that many. I don’t have it and I disabled the ability to download it on my phone or for any smartphone to read it. My smartphone stays home, I move, it doesn’t. I only got it for the camera anyway. It was useful for booking in advance though on holiday.

    The ten p.m wasn’t in force for the first few nights but then it came in and actually didn’t make any difference. The Albion thought it didn’t apply if you sat outside so that was a good laugh. The pubs back home though closed at ten and in the city centre it was chaos. Everyone wanted a taxi and bus at the same time and the match had just finished the first weekend and well, it was madness. All of the football matches have had to be moved, because the TV in bars has to finish and the game must give fifteen minutes to allow people in there time to watch game and leave without missing it. Most evening football kicks off at 8p.m or 8.15p.m which means if a game runs over with injury time, you will miss the end. Putting people out of a bar before the end of a football game doesn’t work. What if there was a late goal? You can imagine the problems. No sports fans are quiet. Moving the match fifteen minutes forward, this is enough time and works well enough because there are no supporters at the ground at the present time. The city centre bars are always much fuller and even sports bars are much quieter now. I was at the local for the Chelsea match a couple of weeks ago and it was less than half full, table service only, tables well apart, small groups or bubble only, one household per table and all the sanitized stuff and contact form. It would normally be full to the rafters during a match. I got told they were full. Since when is a pub full? However, I had a seat booked with a friend. We decided to sit in the alcove as it was quiet. Two quick goals from Liverpool and social distances out of the window. Having said that most people did stay reasonable apart the rest of the time. None of our local cafes are a problem. All the rules are being followed. Its unfair to lump cafes, restaurants and pubs together. They don’t all sell alcohol, most cafes are only open during the day, most restaurants until 9p.m anyway and pubs who serve food are limiting bookings. Its the bars in town that are a problem because everyone comes out at the same time. Our stupid mayor turned entire parts of the city centre and some popular spots around the city into one big food hub. Basically no cars allowed, just tables and chairs and restaurants can serve anyone. Its like Palma Nova. That and the 10p.m curfew, that’s the big problem.

    Locally our eating places are quiet and sedated by all this. The rules are being followed, the monitoring is good and everyone behaving. Most people around are social distancing and hand sanitizer is everywhere. Every place takes track and trace details. You don’t need the App, just name, phone and postcode. I really don’t accept most eating places are the problem and the science agrees. The house parties are the problem, people still meeting at home in big groups, the police need to raid them. The fact is fewer people will be out having parties soon anyway. Scotland has introduced a semi lockdown in parts for 16 days. Its really strict but its sensible. Bars and pubs can remain open after 8.30p.m if they sell food and soft drinks only. All eating places can serve until 9p.m but must limit numbers to strict family units and strict rules on social distances and so on. They want all pubs not serving food and table service to close or serve food in the early evening. Eating means people are forced to remain apart. In other words the pubs are being turned into bistros and limited to certain hours and activities. More control over the city centre in places like Glasgow with thousands of monitors being employed. Some areas will be 10 to 7 p.m only and must serve none alcoholic drinks. It sounds strict but better than changes every four days for 15 million people who don’t know what is going on. Its for a set time period as well. That’s how it should be. Honestly, I blame the media. The media should be put into lockdown, alongside the Government and local mayors.

    I agree on limiting household meetings as well and I really can’t see large groups being allowed at Christmas. I don’t think big family gatherings should be allowed even then. Limiting it to six to eight people including elderly members of the family, plus children is more than fine. People can still enjoy Christmas with immediate family and social bubbling. Christmas isn’t about big gathering. Jesus was born in a stable, not a palace. I think people will find their own way at Christmas and still find a way to bring in the older relatives so as they are not alone. Its very sad when we can’t hug at a funeral, we need love and comfort during these trying times.

    I read on Health Unlocked that vaccination is now being tested and 10_000
    a week is the aim from November onwards so maybe we might see an end in a few months. We have booked for an event at the famous Echo Arena of astronomy and music and family entertainment in May next year. I am optimistic about the future. I am not fearful. I refuse to be scared by the media.

    1. Christine says:

      I also remain optimistic but by nature I am, we have to be in these gloomy times, if we cannot have large social gatherings at Christmas anyway that does not mean Christmas actually has to be ruined, just meet up with the rest of your friends and family on alternate days, however I think many will just ignore the rules if further restrictions are brought in as many have all through the lockdown anyway, where one of my friends live there are many ethnic groups and they have all been meeting up in groups all through the lockdown, visiting each other’s houses having family barbecues etc, then there were those BLM lives matter marches, all which threw safety out of the window, no wonder the infection rate rose again, it was the wrong time to march and make protests, I hope to go out for a few drinks this evening but both pubs were fully booked, so we are thinking of just chancing the Wetherspoons pub which is much more spacious anyway, failing that I said we can just come to mine as iv always plenty of alcohol in ha!

      1. Banditqueen says:

        I think I will have a rave. Get it all out of the way in one boom session lol. Hope you have a good night.

        1. Christine says:

          A rave sounds a good idea

        2. Banditqueen says:

          I haven’t had the cops come to the house since I was 17 and that was the wrong house. Oh wait they came once years ago, we were watching a movie and nect door who was a drama Queen rang them because he thought we were having a physical fight. I was standing looking at the two officers as if they were aliens wondering what was going on. I had to let them see we were both unharmed before they went away. His boyfriend came over to apologise. I was actually bemused. That’s the only excitement though. We used to have six medical students next door who partied for nine months and got thrown out. We had had four teachers for three years with no problems. It was a relief when the house was sold. Actually they didn’t have permission to have students. The Council closed the landlord down. So maybe having a wild rave will be just the thing. Have all the celebrations in one go. I can just imagine the headlines lol.

        3. Banditqueen says:

          I agree, the protests have contributed to the rise in cases as have house parties and some close contact but the new restrictions are batty. In Bangor for example you can’t go into or out of any of five political wards without a good reason. Nobody knows I don’t think where a ward ends. I can’t see it being workable in any case. The nearest shops might be in another area. It may sound good in theory but the practice is very unrealistic. More consultation is required to put realistic and responsible restrictions locally not some civil servant in Westminster making random rules every week.

  41. Banditqueen says:

    I am definitely doing the Christmas shopping this week before we go back to lock down. Why don’t they just put crosses on all houses and lock us all in. The carts can carry out the collection of the corpses in the night because that’s what happens when you lock healthy people down unnecessarily.

    1. Christine says:

      I often start in late September if I see something in a sale or on offer that I know the recipient will like, then I do my shopping in earnest November/ December, it seems we are nearly back to square one again! You cannot have guests round and yet whilst you can meet up outside in sixes, you cannot inside, these rules are very dreary and tiresome and I know a lot who will rebel, it is very sad because we were all hoping life would be more or less back to normal by now, but as ever some have broke the rules and the rest of us have to suffer, Christmas this year is very uncertain for me because I don’t know what I’m doing but I’m not going to bother about it too much as it’s ten weeks away.

      1. Banditqueen says:

        I am not surprised at the situation in Manchester as Andy Burnham is a scouser and he stood up to his own government to help us get a new enquiry into Hillsborough. Jack Straw said no as he was told that there was no new information and sent this young man as a junior minister to the 20th anniversary to face over 30,000 fans and family of the people killed and say no. Andy Burnham stood up and had to stand in silence as the entire arena chanted Justice for the 96 at him for ten minutes. He put his speech away and acknowledged the pain felt by the families. He promised to reopen the enquiry and get justice. At the risk of his own political situation he did just that and the government backed down and the two years inquest followed. Verdict unlawful killing by the police. Many statements had been altered by the police. That’s why the government had refused a new opportunity for the truth. Now Andy Burnham is the metro mayor of the wrong city but he has refused more restrictions without help for the vulnerable. It’s a pity our mayor didn’t do the same.

        I am still looking forward to Christmas although it will be more local this year. Going shopping tomorrow.

        1. Christine says:

          I always love Christmas and as one of my friends said, as long as we have the tv, good food and drink who cares! Hope you have a good shop.

  42. Christine says:

    Hello Michael and Bq, are you both ok?

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Hi Christine, yes not so bad. Had a good shopping trip on Friday, a quiet weekend and am quite well, thanks.

      Are you both o.k?

      To be honest there isn’t much that’s been posted of late, so I haven’t bothered over the last few days.

      1. Christine says:

        Yes I know what you mean, I can’t believe it’s nearly eight weeks to Xmas, don’t think there will be much trick and treating going on this Halloween, but iv got a bag of lollies from the pound shop in case any children come round.

        1. Banditqueen says:

          Our kids come round in a group with the adults. We put out pumpkins to let them know which houses they can visit, to respect older people. I have a skull which glows and eyes that flash. It’s a big hit.

  43. Banditqueen says:

    I have been watching some very interesting talks by Matthew Lewis and am looking forward to the Tudor Summit with Sarah Morris next month.

  44. Banditqueen says:

    Just hoping people are staying well and are o. K. As we go into lock down try to stay in touch and stay safe and well.

    I hope Michael is fine as he is o. K because we haven’t seen him for a bit.

    Take care everyone. Happy 5th.

    LynMarie ❤️

    1. Christine says:

      Hi Bq, yes I was thinking that about Micheal, he’s usually on here quite frequently, I’m missing my little shops but it’s nice to have lie ins again, hopefully it will only be for a month, I’m spending time doing lots of much needed housework at least I can get that done, hope you and Steve are keeping well.

      1. Banditqueen says:

        Yes, did a cafe tour on Wednesday. At least they are doing takeaway.

        1. Christine says:

          The pubs apparently are doing a take a way service, but who’s going to order drinks from the local when supermarkets sell drinks a lot cheaper anyway, especially wine? Heard that Joe Biden is being hailed as the new president of America, but that Trump is refusing to accept defeat and has gone to play golf, I actually thought he would get in for a second time, he is a charismatic leader whearas Biden looks rather tired and grey next to him, I recall when I was working in John Lewis as a Christmas temp four years ago in Oxford street Trump had just been elected, I was serving this American lady and she told me she doesn’t want to go back to the states whilst that awful mans in charge, she called him a crook a liar and cheat it did make me smile, I wonder how Michael voted.

  45. Banditqueen says:

    I have been glued to CNN live for the last four days. On a personal note, thank goodness its over, it was dragging on forever. I am now an expert on every county in Pennsylvania and Arizona and the American counting system. Trump is actually entertaining but he is also dangerous. I am glad Joe Biden got in because he is a man who wants to bring stability and normality back to America. I don’t get this excited over our own elections anymore although I do watch the results. I have been to enough counts to know what Trump said is nonsense. Fraud does happen occasionally but you need a very serious investigation to prove it. In Birmingham a few years back 12,000 postal votes went missing. No actual fraud was ever proved and they were found and added to the delayed recount. However, it showed a wider problem in Birmingham and several counsellors were deselected as a result and a new election held. The sitting MP was in disgrace. Statistics show that individuals who commit voting fraud are insignificant. Its less than 1%, a lot less. The checks to prevent it here are more strict than people think. Although we don’t need ID to vote, you are assigned a number and its almost impossible to vote twice. As a teller, monitor and polling station helper over the years I have seen it all. You need eyes like hawks but to be fair its rare. You might be asked if a cross is on the line between two candidates to decide but you have to measure it and verify it. Spoilt ballots are the worst. Some people really are thick. People put their numbers on the ballot instead of a cross. They write messages. They even draw and colour them in. Its ridiculous. You can allow a tick rather than an x if its clear but no its an x and nothing else. I don’t care if you do think the candidate is sexy, they don’t want your phone number. You don’t see people throwing away large numbers of votes or refusing monitors from all parties. There are cameras everywhere and the boxes are sealed. You are locked in the room and searched. You are veted as a teller. I vote by post and so do millions of people. I have also voted by proxy and that is very strict. Its nonsense to suggest that many volunteers who give up hours or days to count votes are committing fraud. I knew Trump waa was going to do something. Its his style. A lot of Republicans were shocked. Oh well hopefully the way forward is good and healing will follow.

  46. Christine says:

    The trouble is although Trump is quite unpopular over here, he is a good friend and ally to Britain many forget that, Trump believed in Brexit where Biden is all for Europe and worse still, he has IRA sympathies because of his Irish ancestry, sadly I don’t think he’s a friend of Britain’s and only time will tell if we will benefit from his leadership.

    1. Banditqueen says:

      Yes, Trump is very popular in the Mid West, but he didn’t do as well as he thought in places from his first term. That’s why he won’t accept the election as fair. If you ever watch CNN you can see he is talking nonsense. Now its not fraud, its a glich in the system. The votes are counted by hard but hey there’s a glich in the system. Biden may not agree with Brexit but Brexit is done so I don’t think he will get involved. It will be interesting to see how things work out but he is a man who can comprise and our relationship will be with someone sane. The IRA have disarmed years ago so I don’t see his Irish roots as a real problem. Half of America are Irish. I do see some different things but basically I see a man who has endured a lot a personal tragedy and still knows how to smile. Even some Trump supporters are disillusioned by him. No President before claimed the Election was a fraud. I actually think he has lost his mind.

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